An Interview with Spencer Burke: Author of a Heretic's Guide to Eternity
By Next-Wave |
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Spencer Burke is a friend of mine. He's a great father and he loves Jesus. He is the founder and the mover behind The Ooze. And, apparently he is a self-proclaimed Heretic! Spencer was a mega-church pastor when he moved from his third-story office to his beach shack garage to start The Ooze, which is arguably the premier 'emerging church' internet site with over 250,000 visits per month. On the occasion of the publication of his most recent book, I sat down with Spencer to explore some of the issues he has raised in a Heretic's Guide to Eternity. --- Charlie Wear, August 2006
Okay Spencer, why did you call it a Heretic's Guide to Eternity?
 Spencer: Ultimately, if you are outside the church and you are critiquing the church you are either a "pagan" or a "heathen." A heretic is somebody inside the system asking the really tough questions, questions that are so tough that sometimes people are ready to grab a box of matches and say no, that's heresy. So these are not easy questions, my co-author Barry Taylor and I are asking, but I think they are pertinent questions that the church needs to ask. Hopefully, we are doing it in a friendly way from an insider's viewpoint.
You say it's a guide to "Eternity", What's the question you are asking there?
 Spencer: "Is Grace opt-in or is Grace opt-out?" From my perspective, I have always come from a place where I needed to do something, say something, be something to somehow find Grace. My son Alden and I were out at the beach a few years ago. We were playing in the water. He was about four and half or five years old. He had a floatie on, a zip-up life jacket. And he looked up at me and he said, "Dad, do you know how much I love you?" And I'm like, wow, where's this coming from?" "If these waves were ten times taller than you and forty times taller than me, I'd take off my floatie and zip it on you. You'd be saved, but I might sink." "That's how much I love you."
In a flash of insight I thought about God, God the Father, and I realized I thought it was my responsibility to always find the floatie. In fact, maybe to find the floatie before somebody else did, and that there was probably a limited number of floaties out there. But in reality as I look at Scripture and the story and power of Grace, and the work of Christ, I actually believe that now it is not my responsibity to try and dog-paddle with my own human ability, to find Grace. It's a free gift. God places that Grace on me. In that, it is my responsibility to not take the floatie off, or "opt-out."
 I think I understand where you are going with that: Opting-in says we have to pray the Sinner's prayer or we've got to go through confirmation in order to know that we are saved, is that what you are saying?
Spencer: Yes, there are some traditions, some rites, some rituals, some tribal ways in which we try to find our way to God.
Opt-out, what are you trying to say there?
Spencer: I think people ask, "How could a loving God send someone to Hell?" "Or does Hell exist?" For me, I think that Grace says we are in. We are all beloved children of God, all bought by the blood of Christ, all connected in relation together. There's nothing you can do to earn it, buy it, get it or grab it, it's yours, you are here, you are in. Just as with one man's sin, sin entered into the world, in the story of the creation, Adam and Eve screwed up, so sin entered in. Then death entered in. You have no choice in that. You have death. That's the way the story goes.
But Jesus was the second Adam. He comes and brings life, and everyone gets life. You don't have a choice in that either. That's up to God. God gives you Grace. Not because of what you have done, but because of what Jesus has done. So if we are all in, then that's what Grace is. But then I started to think about God's love and the question, "Can a loving God send someone to hell." I thought about it as a parent. I don't think it's love that sends people to Hell. I think it's God's love that gives us the choice to choose, to opt-out.
Can you develop that idea further?
Spencer: In the parable of the Prodigal Son, both the older and the younger son had opportunities to opt-out. The ultimate choice is ours, to reject that Grace, or to walk away from that Grace. Not to accept it. You can do nothing to accept it. But you can follow in it. By Grace you've been saved. You can't boast about that. But you do have to continue in this path, in this direction. That's what I think faith is, following in the path of Jesus. I'm not inviting people to accept Jesus, or to become brand-Christians, or to join the institutional church. What I am doing is inviting people to simply follow Jesus because of the life and Grace he has given us. I'm very clear though, if you don't follow in that way, whether you call yourself a Christian or not. I think you are going to have an opportunity in the end to give account. At that point I think we are going to find out who's in or out. Not because of the human matrix, but because of God looking on the heart, not on the outside.
It sounded like when you were talking about opting out that the choice was up to us. Wouldn't a Biblical purist say, what about all these scenes of judgment? It seems that somebody beyond us is making a decision about whether we are going to be "opted out" or not?
Spencer: You don't want to proof-text your whole theology on one verse or another. There seems to be one sin unto death, blaspheming the Holy Spirit. What does that mean? Nobody knows. Somehow it's a rejecting of that still small voice, that God consciousness within each one of us. That we say, "No, I reject that you are God, I want to be God."
That's the problem with the opt-in world. We literally look at another person within the human matrix and say, "If you do this, this, and this, I can guarantee you eternal life." I don't see anywhere in the Scripture where one human should be announcing or pronouncing eternal life for another one. It's not only not our responsibility, we don't even have the right to do that. Scripture actually tells us not to separate the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats. That's God's responsibility. So our responsibility as the church is not to try and say who's in or who's out, but to invite people to follow Jesus. In that knowledge that Grace is sufficient for all, I think it is also part of the Gospel to let people know, both those who think they are in and those who think they are out, that it's not whether you get in or out, it's "Are you following in the way of Jesus?"
Can you explain a little more how opting out works?
Spencer: I do think you can opt-out of this Grace. And that's the love of God allowing us to walk away from this wonderful and amazing gift. The twist in it is, that even those people who have settled into a secure position of believing they are in because they went through some rites and rituals, there are just too many strange scriptures at the end of our story in the book of Revelation where God opts people in. People say I healed in your name, I taught in your name, I preached in your name. But no, Jesus looks at them and says no, you opt-out. You did all of those things, but you opt-out, "Depart from me, I never knew you." "You didn't follow me. I gave you that initial gift of Grace and connection, but we never developed our relationship." "You developed religiosity, but you never developed relationship."
And then the really strange part is that there will be another group of people who will be saying, "Now I'm screwed if those guys are screwed." But Jesus says, "Whoa, come on back here." "You gave me a cup of cold water." "I don't remember that, when did I clothe you, when did I feed you, when did I give you a cup of cold water?" And Jesus says, "When you did it for the least of these, you did for me."
Some might say, "Wow, I didn't even know I was serving you and yet I was following in your way."
At that point I think we are all going to be very confused about how God decides who is in or who is out. But I do believe it will ultimately be because of the work and person of Jesus.
One of the sections of your book is "Jesus beyond Religion" what are you trying to say there?
Spencer: I think that in very many ways people do believe that Christianity and Christ are equal. First all we weren't even called Christians until a secular group looked at a group of Christ-followers and asked, "Who are they?" A group of outsiders said, "Oh, they must be Christians."
We've taken on this idea of Christianity and we've perfected it in such a way that we have created the "Club." We know what it means to be a Christian. I actually think you can become a Christian and never even know who Jesus is. Because you will do the rites and rituals of Christianity, just like the Rotary Club, the Elks or whatever other club you want to join. They have these human behaviors that say you are in. For Christianity these might be tithing, and prayer, and saying a double-whammy prayer. It's fascinating that every time Jesus looks at the human institutions he says wait a minute. I would think that you could never sin if you prayed. Jesus compares a poor gentleman stretched out on the ground and a very high and holy Pharisee praying 'O God, thank you for not making me like that person' and Jesus says "Who do you think God is going to hear?" Jesus is literally saying, "No, prayer can be sin."
Spencer: I think that what happens is Christianity is mostly about external rules. checkboxes. That could be Western Christianity, Eastern Christianity, Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity, Protestant Christianity, whatever your brand, of Christianity. This book that Barry and I wrote, is mostly developed around American culture, European culture, in particular the United Kingdom. We believe that the brand of Christianity has lost its salt, has lost its savor.
So in that sense I would never want to equate the person and work of Jesus with the person and work of a humanly designed religion known as Christianity.
Look at Missiology. Many of my friends are now out in Muslim countries ministering. In the past we would have said we want people to convert to Christianity. We don't do that any more. We invite people to follow Jesus. They are not even asking them to leave their Muslim faith, they are asking them to simply follow Jesus. In that, they don't convert from one religion to another, they enter into this relationship and begin to follow Jesus and then let God lead them as they move forward.
Is this what you mean when you say in the book, you have to move beyond religion to find Grace?
Spencer: Religion tends to always solve the issues about how one finds God, how one gets to heaven. It's been very helpful in the past. Now we have moved into more of a global society. The functions and work of religion that used to happen more in a tribal sense don't serve the same purposes any more. It's not that religion is bad, it's not that Christianity is bad. But those are not the answers. When someone needs to move beyond those things, we allow them to do so. The institutional church may need some of these rites and rituals. But when someone says no, I am going to follow Jesus, they are still church in relationship as we try to solve global issues. Issues like pandemic aids, poverty, war, at this point we look at each other not as Sunni or Shiite, Protestant or Catholic, we look at us all as beloved children of God.
An afterword from Charlie Wear: It was at this point that my recorder ran out of battery power. What I can tell you is that Spencer Burke is passionate about this subject. It is clear to me, when I hear him talk, that his passion is driven by his desire to guide others in "the way of Jesus." I think, as Spencer might put it, that this book is more about raising awareness than about reaching agreement. This book will create a lot of buzz, much as it has already over on Scot McKnight's blog. Before entering the fray I suggest that you get a copy and read it for yourself. Spencer tells me that discussion boards are opening on The Ooze this week with the publication of the book.
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Thanks for the interview, Charlie. I'm especially interested when Spencer talks about his missionary friends inviting Muslim's to follow Jesus, rather than convert to Christianity. Dangerous faith! Don't you be talking like that! We'll have empty churches and no-one to repair the gutters!
Also, sinning while praying is an interesting one ::never done that before!::
I've got some thoughts and reactions to Spencer's ideas here, but I'm still reading the book and will save them for now.
Just one clarification... I first heard about the concept he mentions re Muslims who become followers of Jesus from a missionary to Egypt... I think it's bit more nuanced than "not even asking them to leave their Muslim faith"...
Of course they are asked to leave the Muslim faith. But they are encouraged to remain in the Islamic culture, to continue to eat culturally appropriate foods, to not adopt what they might consider "Christian" cultural values in dress and diet, etc. This is done so that as followers of Christ they might a. Not have their lives threated and b. Be a real, effective witness to Isa the Messiah from inside the culture rather than being seen as alien to it.
But to say they retain their Muslim "faith" is probably stretching it...
a heretic is somebody inside the system asking the really tough questions, questions that are so tough that sometimes people are ready to grab a box of matches and say no, that's heresy
no. a heretic is not someone who asks the tough questions.. but one who gives 'new & different' answers to them. To say Jesus was just a man, not God or never claimed to be the Messiah. well that's heresy. To claim a doctrine is 'biblical' and yet something brand new or contrary to what the Scriptures have taught.. that is heresy.
The problem is not that Christianity (and the dogmas & docrines of the faith )has had the wrong answers. I'll end with 2 quotes from much greater men than myself:
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." (G.K. Chesterton) and
"Christianity simply does not make sense until you have faced the sort of facts I have been describing. Christianity tells people to repent and promises them forgiveness. It therefore has nothing (as far as I know) to say to people who do not know they have done anything to repent of and who do not feel that they need forgiveness." (C.S. Lewis)
Wow I feel so much better now that I know I am in the driver's seat. I never liked the idea that God was in charge. I'm gonna buy this book and I'm gonna be careful that I never opt-out again.
Being made in the image of God, I know that He is reading this nonsense and laughing, because at this moment, after reading this I am. Real Question becomes, how much apostasy will he tolerate?
Spencer, you are a brave man, putting these thoughts into writing.
you are not alone in your thoughts, but you have less company when it comes to bravery. :D
perhaps some of the comments posted exemplify the pervailing attitude of which Spencer writes. it is interesting we are quick to throw about labels like apostate and heretic, as well as define a heretic as one who has new ideas about how scripture can be seen, and cast this in a negative light. as far as apostasy, i didn't hear spencer say he had walked away from jesus, (in fact that i think that is what he meant by not opting out), but to rattle the cage of the institution seems to bring swift judgement. i have not read the book, though I am interested to do so. i do resonate with the story of the prodigal son being a way to see that we are all sons (or daughters), however living in awareness of that relationship seems to be the struggle.
Jesus talked about passing from death to life (from the world of the dead to the world of the living as Eugene Peterson translates it). It seems to me that in the context of the eternal life Jesus talked about that he was saying we opt-in, not opt-out.
If you opt-out can you opt-in again? Or is that determined at judgment?
What Spencer is saying here sure rings bells for me. He's talking about the same Jesus that I know.
I very much look forward to reading his book. Hang in there Spencer you are doing a great job and I think you'll find a lot of people out there will feel their hearts jump for joy when they 'hear' what you are saying.
All the best to you and your family Spencer, Foxtrot_delta
One could argue that "Choice" is in fact often an object of higher worship than the One who gives life. Many leaders would feel it a graven sin to not give "choice" such exaltation during the altar call. (R.Warren even exclusively uses "Optober" as choice month.)
It also seems that to disagree w/the article implies a belief that The Father had to kill The Son(instead of killing us right then)on the Cross(thus licensing his future consignment of many to Hell)not that the natural consequence of separation from the Father was the death of the Son.
These are very interesting perspectives. One thing I do know for sure is God will not tolerate religion... it is the one thing that keeps the ones He loves from coming home. I truly believe, once we know who we really are (As sons and daughters of the living God and heirs to the kingdom) religiosity will fall in our lives and the true Glory of God will be made manifest. It's a process of downward mobility. Once we get it, our lives are inconsequential... we look more and more like Jesus.
To Rob Tremonte:
Religiocity (I choose this over religion, as many dedicated Christians in the past used it to mean a different thing then you) definitely stank to Jesus. However, now claiming that our patterns of faith expression will not ammount to another tradition or the tradition of not being traditional is a stretch. I think we need to guard against that just as much as anybody in the flow of history.
I completely agree with your comment, Simonas.... My comment about "Religion" means this: Man's perception and presumption on God's Will that turns into fact. Therefore, Man judges each other....
The oposite of religion is "Unconditional Love"... You can only deal out unconditional love when the One WHO IS LOVE... reveals that love to you and it transforms the core of who you are.... When you look more and more like Jesus, you begin to see His creation with a completely new prospective. We will begin to see our job as "Christians" is very simple... Love God with ALL our heart and really, really Love our Neighbors like we love ourselves - laying our complete life down for them - money, energy, time, everything we own.... if we can get that down, then we can move to step 2!
I would like very much to read the book by Spencer Burke . Fundamentalists like to bandie about the word "heretic" and the word "heresy" , to disparage the writings of people like Mr.Burke .
Though some of the New Testament epistles by St.Paul (like the letter to Titus) do mention the term heresy--the term 'heretic' is not given a definition by Paul . It is VERY doubtful that St.Paul had the broad definition for the words 'heresy' and 'heretic' that many Fundamentalists and other sectarians have in mind when they use the word .
The only time in the New Testament when the word 'heresies' is given anything almost like a definition in the bible is in 2 Peter chapter 2 which when it speaks of those 'who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ...' it refers to such heresy as
'even denying the Lord that bought them '.
Thus the only time heresy is described at length in the bible the word is NOT used broadly to refer to any doctrine that is very unorthodox, or new or exotic, *instead* it refers to something more basic , 'denying the Lord ' outright .
There is a big difference between denying Jesus as lord outright , and the far separate matter of merely teaching a doctrine that is exotic or so-called "unorthodox" !
Jesus in the gospels never even uses the words 'heresy' or 'heretic', he was more concerned with whether doctrines were internally inconsistent or whether doctrines promoted unethical/immoral behavior and NOT any "doctrinal correctness" for their own sake apart from those considerations .
I reread what I previously wrote and noted that I branded this nonsense as heresy. Hummm. Well, I have just read Dallas Willard's The Divine Conspiracy, and have changed my mind. This whole controversy regarding knowing that you are saved has been resolved, and found substantially lacking in gravity to even rate a debate. Dr. Willard has got to be the man of the hour in terms of Christian Theology, and for me the salvation question/answer is not easily given in a phrase, but I hope that those with an inquiring mind for truth would chase down and read the book. It changed my life; I am into a regime of honest Discipleship now, with a vengeance to make up for lost time spent thinking about "getting a deal on making it into heaven"; you don't know what you are missing until you indulge your spirit in Willard's books. As they say on the street: he's the man. Dr Gene
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Also, sinning while praying is an interesting one ::never done that before!::
Just one clarification... I first heard about the concept he mentions re Muslims who become followers of Jesus from a missionary to Egypt... I think it's bit more nuanced than "not even asking them to leave their Muslim faith"...
Of course they are asked to leave the Muslim faith. But they are encouraged to remain in the Islamic culture, to continue to eat culturally appropriate foods, to not adopt what they might consider "Christian" cultural values in dress and diet, etc. This is done so that as followers of Christ they might a. Not have their lives threated and b. Be a real, effective witness to Isa the Messiah from inside the culture rather than being seen as alien to it.
But to say they retain their Muslim "faith" is probably stretching it...
no. a heretic is not someone who asks the tough questions.. but one who gives 'new & different' answers to them. To say Jesus was just a man, not God or never claimed to be the Messiah. well that's heresy. To claim a doctrine is 'biblical' and yet something brand new or contrary to what the Scriptures have taught.. that is heresy.
The problem is not that Christianity (and the dogmas & docrines of the faith )has had the wrong answers. I'll end with 2 quotes from much greater men than myself:
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." (G.K. Chesterton) and
"Christianity simply does not make sense until you have faced the sort of facts I have been describing. Christianity tells people to repent and promises them forgiveness. It therefore has nothing (as far as I know) to say to people who do not know they have done anything to repent of and who do not feel that they need forgiveness." (C.S. Lewis)
you are not alone in your thoughts, but you have less company when it comes to bravery. :D
If you opt-out can you opt-in again? Or is that determined at judgment?
I very much look forward to reading his book. Hang in there Spencer you are doing a great job and I think you'll find a lot of people out there will feel their hearts jump for joy when they 'hear' what you are saying.
All the best to you and your family Spencer, Foxtrot_delta
It also seems that to disagree w/the article implies a belief that The Father had to kill The Son(instead of killing us right then)on the Cross(thus licensing his future consignment of many to Hell)not that the natural consequence of separation from the Father was the death of the Son.
Religiocity (I choose this over religion, as many dedicated Christians in the past used it to mean a different thing then you) definitely stank to Jesus. However, now claiming that our patterns of faith expression will not ammount to another tradition or the tradition of not being traditional is a stretch. I think we need to guard against that just as much as anybody in the flow of history.
The oposite of religion is "Unconditional Love"... You can only deal out unconditional love when the One WHO IS LOVE... reveals that love to you and it transforms the core of who you are.... When you look more and more like Jesus, you begin to see His creation with a completely new prospective. We will begin to see our job as "Christians" is very simple... Love God with ALL our heart and really, really Love our Neighbors like we love ourselves - laying our complete life down for them - money, energy, time, everything we own.... if we can get that down, then we can move to step 2!
Though some of the New Testament epistles by St.Paul (like the letter to Titus) do mention the term heresy--the term 'heretic' is not given a definition by Paul . It is VERY doubtful that St.Paul had the broad definition for the words 'heresy' and 'heretic' that many Fundamentalists and other sectarians have in mind when they use the word .
The only time in the New Testament when the word 'heresies' is given anything almost like a definition in the bible is in 2 Peter chapter 2 which when it speaks of those 'who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ...' it refers to such heresy as
'even denying the Lord that bought them '.
Thus the only time heresy is described at length in the bible the word is NOT used broadly to refer to any doctrine that is very unorthodox, or new or exotic, *instead* it refers to something more basic , 'denying the Lord ' outright .
There is a big difference between denying Jesus as lord outright , and the far separate matter of merely teaching a doctrine that is exotic or so-called "unorthodox" !
Jesus in the gospels never even uses the words 'heresy' or 'heretic', he was more concerned with whether doctrines were internally inconsistent or whether doctrines promoted unethical/immoral behavior and NOT any "doctrinal correctness" for their own sake apart from those considerations .