Profoundly Disturbed on The Fourth of July (redux): God, The Flag, and the End of America
By Bob Hyatt |
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Author’s note: This article was first published in the summer of 2003. Shortly thereafter, my church employer and I…uh… parted company. It was God’s way of getting me off my rear and into the church plant that I am now leading, but at the time it was a little scary. To their credit, the church, in letting me go took good care of my family and did their best to put a positive spin on things (both of which I am very grateful for). But the bottom line is that in this era of charged political debate, the evangelical church in America seems to have come down on the side of those who say dissent is somehow unpatriotic and that to be a Good Christian also means being a Good American. This is especially true in time of war--- when the danger is that we might be tempted to believe that to disagree with a policy is not to support the troops. I again offer this article in the hopes that those who have planned a good ol’ patriotic Fourth of July Service will think twice… and perhaps instead of singing the Star Spangled Banner, will spend time praying for victims of war and terrorism alike, for our enemies and for peace in our world.
 Our call to worship that 4th of July weekend was This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land. After the Color Guard presented the flag, we stood, said the Pledge of Allegiance and then sang The Star-Spangled Banner. Our worship set included The Battle Hymn of the Republic, My Country ‘Tis of Thee, America the Beautiful and God Bless America. We even finished the service by asking the congregation to sing along with Lee Greenwood’s God Bless the USA (“I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free…”).
And through the whole thing I couldn’t help but think how moving it was with flags draped from the ceiling, how well-done the music sounded with the drums beating a military cadence throughout… and how incredibly wrong that we were doing any of it.
Who Are You?
The word that the New Testament uses to describe those of us who belong to God’s Kingdom, yet still reside here on earth is ”strangers.” The idea is that our citizenship has shifted to another country, that we have become aliens- people who reside in one country, but whose allegiance, heart and destiny lie with another. The writer of Hebrews says it this way: “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come. " (Heb. 13:14, NASB). He praised those who were able to recognize their status here: “All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.”
Strangers, citizens of another Kingdom, those whose heart is set on another place. Yes---we are to pray for our leaders and seek the peace and welfare of the area where God has placed us, but we need to be exceedingly careful of becoming attached to this temporary residence of ours- even when it comes to its finer qualities.
So You Wanna Go Back To Egypt?
As I read the Old Testament accounts of exile, particularly the story of the children of Israel in Egypt, I’m struck by the picture that God was drawing: His people, under oppression in a country not their own, longing for the one who would come and lead them out to the promised land. I have no doubt, and we can see from their complaints in the desert that the region of Goshen where they resided was nice, relatively plague-free, perhaps less wicked than the areas of Egypt that surrounded, but it was still Egypt nonetheless. Can you imagine if the Israelites had become so enamored of Goshen that after almost 400 years there, they had begun to write songs about Goshen, pledge their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to Goshen, and had begun to think of Goshen as being the greatest land on the face of the earth (“God Bless Goshen!”, “And I’m proud to be a Goshenite, where at least I’m still plague-free!”). I think an objective observer would have rightly asked, “You foolish people! Are you forgetting that this is not your home?”
While we can appreciate the ways that God has blessed us here in America, to lose sight of our status as aliens, to become enamored of this land in which we live, to forget that someday One will come and lead us out would be nothing less than foolish.
More than just foolish, I think some of the ways in which we celebrate our “Godly American Heritage” in the context of a worship service may even be directly contrary to the Gospel. Jesus said, quoting Isaiah, “My House will be called a house of prayer for all nations…” as He rebuked the temple authorities for falling down on the “house of prayer” part. I wonder if, by allowing nationalistic displays into our corporate worship time, into God’s temple the Church, we are falling down on the “for all nations part.”
No, there’s nothing wrong with patriotism in the sense of rooting for your team and appreciating your country. But when it becomes more than that…For C.S. Lewis patriotism could be dangerous in that it could serve as a means to wrest man’s focus from where it belongs toward something very temporal indeed.
“Let him begin by treating Patriotism… as a part of his religion. Then let him, under the influence of partisan spirit, come to regard it as the most important part. Then quietly and gradually nurse him on to the stage at which the religion becomes merely part of the cause, in which Christianity is valued chiefly because of the excellent arguments in can produce…”
"A man may have to die for our country: but no man must, in any exclusive sense, live for his country. He who surrenders himself without reservation to the temporal claims of a nation, or a party, or a class is rendering to Caesar that which, of all things, most emphatically belongs to God: himself.”
And there it is…What was bothering me so much during that 4th of July service wasn’t so much that we were celebrating America (believe it or not, I actually do have some warm feelings for my country). It wasn’t so much what we were doing, as what we weren’t. We had taken a time that belonged to the worship of God and turned it towards the appreciation of a country, a political system, a flag. We said that we were worshiping God through the singing of those patriotic songs, the saying of the Pledge of Allegiance and the rest, but in fact, by the true definition of worship- recognizing worth- we were worshiping America.
The End of America
It’s not wrong to love our country. We can be proud of our humanitarian efforts throughout the world. No one gives more money and other types of aid to developing nations than the USA. We can be proud that we are slowly coming to live out our creed: All men are created equal.
But even in our more patriotic moments, we shouldn’t forget some of the painful aspects of our history such as our treatment of Native Americans, the damaging effects of which can still be seen today. We shouldn’t whitewash our history of slavery and our support of dictators around the world when it served our purposes. And most of all, we mustn’t forget what America really is. In Adventures In Missing The Point, Tony Campolo puts it this way: “America may be the best Babylon the world has, but it is still Babylon nonetheless.”
We live in Babylon, folks. It’s a world system that transcends borders, is dominated by American-style consumerism and exploitation, and is fundamentally opposed to the Kingdom of God. More than that, it’s a system which will someday be brought to a terrifying and glorious end by the coming of God’s Anointed One. Yes, someday Jesus Himself will sweep America, along with all the other babelistic towers we have built, into the dustbin of history.
And, the Bible says, at this the people of God will rejoice. (Revelation 18:20-19:4)
So if we know that someday we as the Church will cheer the fall of America and the rest of the nations of the world, what should be our attitude now?
How Should We Then Celebrate?
We need to make sure that the message of our worship environment (the message people intuit when they walk into our building or sanctuary or gathering space) is consistent with our doctrine: Our allegiance belongs to Christ alone, we are citizens of another country, and we are looking not to the country in which we live, but to a heavenly one. Probably the best way to do this in the context of the 4th of July would be to honor God and worship Him as the one who brings freedom of all kinds, not the least of which may be freedom from tyranny.
We can thank God for His blessings, ask His forgiveness for our national sins and offer the freedom of Christ to all who are there, American or not.
Expatriate or Ex-Patriot?
I lived for two years in the Netherlands as an “expatriate”- someone who lives as a non-citizen in a country not their own. I learned a lot of things, but most of all, through the homesickness I sometimes felt, even in the midst of loving my experience of living abroad, I learned an excellent model for our time here on earth. We are, all of us who know Christ, expatriates- living for a time in a foreign country. We can enjoy it, but if we ever stop feeling homesick, we are in trouble.
So, next Fourth of July, go ahead and light off some fireworks, thank God for the freedoms you have, enjoy a nice parade or picnic… but maybe leave the Star-Spangled Banner out of the worship set, okay?
 Bob Hyatt is the lead pastor of the Evergreen Community, an emerging community in Portland, OR (www.evergreenlife.org). More importantly he is the husband of Amy and the father of Jack and Jane (see the pic). |
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Thank you, thank you, thank you! For some reason we have forgotten that we are ALIENS in this world...looking forward to something much better than our current situation! I like the picture that ambassador conjures up as well. We, as Christ-Followers, are ambassadors from a foreign land. Thank you for sharing. I am in the Portland area and plan on looking up the Evergreen Community.
Bob, you're on to something here. I'm an Episcopalian who is uncomfortable with the fact that Independance Day is a Holy Day on our calendar. Many churches in different traditions have an American flag up front right next to the pulpit and communiuon table or altar. But as Paul, the letter to the Hebrews,and Augustine remind us, we are citizens of another city. Thanks for another reminder. We need it.
Thank You! We need more voices like yours in the Body. A position similar to yours on these issues of allegiances and discipleship also contributed to my "dismissal" from a pastorate. I now find myself in a new church setting where there is a segment of the church that elevates patriotism to worship status and confuses extreme right wing politics with following Jesus. I am devoted to shepherding this flock with kindness, grace and love and as yet have not figured out nor heard from the Lord concerning just exactly how to shift the allegiances of this segment to Jesus foremost. Keep pressing on brother. Leon
Amen and Amen!!
Why was Daniel thrown into the lion's den again?
~//~
Thanks for this article, Bob. The global church has been deeply uncomfortable with the uniformity of the American church and American politics for some time now. Luckily we know there are people like you who share our discomfort and are looking to give the church a healthy distance from the State. Good luck for the future!
preach it!
I would love to send a link to think article to a bunch of people from my church, just as food for thought and something to think about... But people are so entrenched in this Christianity=Patriotism thing that I'm worried I'll just needlessly piss people off. I'ev got to come up with another way, because this is SO important.
Thanks!
Well presented and well balanced. Thank you. Particularly for the nod towards the citizens of a far country part from Hebrews. I truly enjoyed this article and it resonnated with me.
PJ
Thanks so much for this well thought-out and fair minded article. One thing I really appreciated is the way in which you don't feel the need to trash America or disregard the good things we have here in order to critique the too often slavish Americanism that infects some branches of the church. Too often it's presented like it's an either/or by people on both sides of debate. I have been disturbed by the way so many conservative evangelicals seem to equate America with God and the church, but equally disturbed by how some other people seem to have an anti-American attitude even as they enjoy all of the freedom and prosperity we have here. In my opinion, any true critique of America and Americanism must begin by acknowledging what is good.
At my church, we just finished a sermon series on the book of Jonah, and one of the points made was that the story of Jonah shows us how God's mercy extends to all nations and peoples, not just our tribe or nation, or the one's we think are favored by God.
Peace, Gordon
As a Brit who has had the privilege of enjoying US hospitality on a grand scale I really enjoyed this article. I'm one of many who find the partnership of Blair and Bush ' frightening'. How they can possibly believe that their decisions are based on the Christian faith is completely beyond my understanding!
You do have a wonderful country and I'm familiar with 'America the Beautiful'. It was one of the hymns in our 'American' hymnal - but we used to sing 'O Israel' instead of 'America'! But history shows us that empires rise and fall - and it's only a matter of time!
Great article. Couldn't agree more. National flags have no place in GOD'S santuary.Contrary to modern belief God is not an American.
Wow. Pleasantly suprised that the author didn't take the opportunity to bash America. I get so weary of the endless whining from liberals who continually claim they are patriotic yet do things that are so blatantly unpatriotic. I'm not talking about dissent, but about flat out anti-America.
The article makes you think. There are some excellent points about the separation of church and state, something that's definatly not in the US constitution but certainly in the Scripture.
I would take issue over someone who commented on the Bush/Blair/Christianity connection. It is just as disturbing to have Christians support social welfare programs operated by the state using taxes collected from my income. I don't fork over my taxes with a joyful heart, but I'll certanly give joyfully to social programs run by believers because that's the church's job, not the government's. The state should get out of that business so I've got more to give to my church's food bank and other social programs that are run better than _any_ government program.
A well thought out article and one I've been sensitive to for years. On Sundays connected with the 4th, Veterans' Day, etc. - I cannot help but make mention of our privileges and obligations as people in a land of opportunity. I may use a one of two minute Powerpoint presentation to honor those who gave their lives. However, I've never gotten into lots of flags and banners and singing patriotic tunes. First and foremost we are there for worship. The events outside the church will give all of us opportunity for celebrating America - which is still the best country to be a stranger and pilgrim.
I should also note that I really don't go for other theme days like Father's Day and Mother's Day - but I'm far from anti-parent. Just like patriotic celebrations - there is more than enough going on to celebrate those days without making church like a Branson production.
Let us pray that we fall in love with God and His Kingdom. Let us pray that when He returns - he finds a church truly longing for His coming, not just wondering how our investments are doing and if we could swing another car into out budgets.
In Northern Ireland we sing, 'This land is our land, this land's NOT your land (meaning the Catholic community), from the River Boyne, to the Giants Causeway...' -- well maybe not exactly those words, but you get the point. And, Protestant Christianity is very much at the heart of it. I wish your article could be edited just slightly (i.e. substitute 12th of July for the 4th, British flag for the American, etc) and re-published here.
Further reading: Resident Aliens by Hauerwas
as a Brit, I find the way America does patriotic flag -waving pretty nausiating at the best of times.
Very interesting and encouraging to see Americans questioning this whole thing about flag worship.
However, I do think it's ok to consider good things about yourselves. ONE: America is a wealthy nation and prides itself on givng...America as God's Nation Yes..sure , but so is AFRICA!!!!!!!!!! Make Poverty History... would that be a patriotic thing to do? for America? sure!!
Bob, I'm glad you have some "warm feelings" for America. Probably not warm enough for my blood.
I agree that worship services are for bringing glory to God. However, I'm wondering if your readers would be as upset about honoring mothers and fathers on their special days. Or making Christmas a celebration as bizarre as it has become. Jesus never commanded us to celebrate his birth.
I don't see a celebration of America as supplanting our love for God. Instead, I find it sad the number of Americans who fail to grasp the price that was paid for the great benefits we enjoy. Having traveled a bit myself, I am always grateful to return to this country.
Freedom is a concept close to God's heart. As a pastor, I hope you can can preach that...around July 4th, or anytime.
Sorry my feelings for America (or at least what you know of them from this short article) aren't warm enough for you! Apologies :)
But if it's all the same to you, we'll keep our community celebration of the fourth to a bar b que where we eat good food, enjoy one another's company and celebrate our political freedom by (as Jefferson exhorted us to) blowing things up.
We'll keep the church gathering closest to the fourth centered on Jesus.
Re: I am Profoundly Disturbed on the Fourth of July (redux): God, The Flag, and the end of America
In Adventures In Missing The Point, Tony Campolo puts it this way: “America may be the best Babylon the world has, but it is still Babylon nonetheless.”
We live in Babylon, folks. It’s a world system that transcends borders, is dominated by American-style consumerism and exploitation, and is fundamentally ((opposed to the Kingdom of God???)). . .AND. . .More than that, it’s a system which will someday be brought to a terrifying and glorious end by the coming of God’s Anointed One. Yes, someday Jesus Himself will sweep America, along with all the other (Roman, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc, Evergreen Community, etc, Christ Apostolic Church, etc) babelistic towers we have built, into the dustbin of history.
---Read the Bible…WORD… Jesus said, (NIV) “I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.” Matthew 12:5-7
How Should We Then Celebrate?
We need to make sure that the message of our worship environment (the message people intuit when they walk into our building “(through The Gates of Hades)” or sanctuary or gathering space) is consistent with OUR DOCTRINE (not that of Christ?): Our allegiance belongs to Christ alone (did you forget GOD the Father?), we are citizens of another country, and we are looking not to the country in which we live, but to a heavenly one.
Ahh... yeah. A little incoherent there, "rotciv"...
Anyway, for those interested, here is the video we've shown before our service the past two Fourth of July weekends... Get's me every time. From Highway Video, music by Derek Webb.
Ahh… yeah Pastor Bob, please point out the incoherence to help me clarify my relationship with Jesus.
Sorry Bob, I see the USA a little different than you, and I believe that Christ is the whole reason to live and I can't wait to receive the reality of my heavenly citizenship. But for now we are citizens of a country, me the USA. This is a God created institution, national citizenship. It wasn't man's idea and it was demonstrated with divine dynamics at Babel. As humans, we think too highly of ourselves when we think we can gather around the globe and sing, "I would like to teach the world to sing" and we live in peace under the perfect government system or no government system. If that was the case why would we yearn for a heavenly citizenship. The heart is deceitful, we can't live under one earthly citizenship. But for now, though we are citizens of heaven, we are citizens of a country. I'm very thankful by grace to be an American.
Please reread the OT and tell me there isn't patriotism by God's people. I don't think since the beginning of humanity there has been a nation that has truly been His. God chose Israel not because of how great they were but because of His GRACE! And still they screwed up. But He never quit being their God - GRACE!
Please reread your American history, not from history books which write what they think history was. Withou God's plan and purpose involved in man's affairs you get a skewed view of history. Sure the Americans didn't do everything right or godly - so we condemn it all? The Native Americans - were treated less than human in many cases, but let's not forget how God has always dealt with a people or nations that choose not to worship Him. Another power comes and subdues them - that is history. Sad to say as America keeps turning further and further away from God, we can be assured that God will use another power to subdue us. And many godly American Christians will suffer too when this happens.
Worshipping the country over God is making an idol of the nation. But as citizens of heaven we are responsible to the country God has allowed us to be citizens of. All for His glory. Even in Babylon.
"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ" Phil 3:20
Thanks Bob, not bad but you don't go nearly far enough - as followers of Christ, we are aliens in this world. And being a follower of Christ means the death of self at all cost. And the cost of following Christ is high. Our identity must be as aliens not as Americans. The pledge of allegiance is idolatry against God. Patriotism is offensive to God as far as I can tell from the New Testament. Pride is sin. And you know " God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble". May He raise up a church in this nation that is truly repentant. Because right now this is one arrogant, complacent nation. Maybe you have read the 95 thesis written by Kingdom Now?
em, that would be the 95 theses on the nationalistic idolatry of churches in the united states by Kingdom Now. January 2002. ps - do you really think Jesus supports the troops? I mean , do you think He is with them while they pull the trigger? Is love in their hearts while they pull the trigger?
I like what Kurt says about having a sense of national identity; I certainly do!! i'm British, that is how I identify myself nationally and cultually. the Anglican church here in the UK flies the cross of St.George above many of its churches; and there is also good down-to-earth teaching and grace-based spirituality to found within its members too.
our national identies in Grace and letting Him live as us,nationally and culturally out of that. This is the Grace thing to do, otherwise we are denying important parts of ourselves - submitting it all under Grace...we can't go wrong there anf then let Him breathe through it
In Grace I think its possible to be patriotic without becoming partisan to either political leaning. I know from personal experience that taking a particular side politically ( the hard left) I have denied myself the opportunity to grow in Grace and walk into the things He has for me; to let His love for certain people ( right wingers mainly)flow in me and through me
America does patriotism in quite a unique way to the rest of the world and I think it is because like other European countries who now have presidential constitutions which were borne out of monarchies,and there is a heritage underlying them, the US never had a monarchy - period; it has had to find a sense of itself therefore in overt ways of flag waving and idealism as a means of over-compensating for a lack of monarchism and heritage.
This is a Brit talking here...if I don't make much sense please ask me to explain in further detail
I would like to write a comment that does not agree with the general census. I does not sound like any of the folks posting these comments have ever served in the military, let alone the US military. Just as we celebrate mother's day, and father's day, and all of these other American-made holidays, we celebrate people. We show compassion to people, and our military are the people who defend our American right of free speech, our rights to be typing these comments and not worry about having our heads sawed off on TV for it. (I realize I am taking this to an extreme, but it is easier to make a point this way for me) But for me, I appreciate the freedoms I have as an American and the freedom to worship God and argue with people I don't know and not worry about being martyred. These are not God-given rights, so I thank God for the people who have made this possible. I thank military members for what they have done and what they do. We take for granted what we have everyday and how can you show compassion or love to someone who defends your right to live better than 90% of the earth's population if you can't show them love at "church"? So, I disagree with your article for that fact. In no way would this even come close to reaching any American Military members for Christ. I applaud the article for not bashing America, but this point of view would not reach those who defend our rights to disagree, our rights to love people, our rights to show compassion for others without fear of reprise. So GOD BLESS AMERICA, and GOD BLESS ALL NATIONS. My prayer is we as Americans - aliens on earth as are all people - will help bridge the gap in other countries with language, aid, and gospel. We have unique opportunities to reach people for Christ because of where we were born and raised, so I celebrate that and will continue to use that for HIS advantage.
In Christ's Love - Chad
Bob, I'll have to throw my hat in with those standing with you. It has been one of my (underground) theses for years. Kudos to you for being brave enough to speak up, knowing what was to come of it. (You HAD to know, given that worship service, what your church's response to your article would be.) God bless AmericaNS like you!
" When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross"
- Sinclair Lewis early 20th century
hmmm... i disagree pretty much. but, valuable read anyway.
How Should We Then Celebrate?
We need to make sure that the message of our worship environment (the message people intuit when they walk into our building “(through The Gates of Hades)” or sanctuary or gathering space) is consistent with OUR DOCTRINE (not that of Christ?): Our allegiance belongs to Christ alone (did you forget GOD the Father?), we are citizens of another country, and we are looking not to the country in which we live, but to a heavenly one.
Posted by rotciv | Posted at 07/15/2006 7:28 PM
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Ahh... yeah. A little incoherent there, "rotciv"... Anyway, for those interested, here is the video we've shown before our service the past two Fourth of July weekends... Get's me every time. From Highway Video, music by Derek Webb.
Posted by bob hyatt | Posted at 07/15/2006 7:38 PM
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Ahh… yeah Pastor Bob, please point out the incoherence to help me clarify my relationship with Jesus.
Posted by Rotciv | Posted at 07/15/2006 8:11 PM ---------------------------------------------------
When Pastor Bob was asked to "point out the incoherence" in my comment, as can be seen, he has ignored that request. What scripture says to ignore one's faithful request for clarification?
Worshipping the country over God is making an idol of the nation. But as citizens of heaven we are responsible to the country God has allowed us to be citizens of. All for His glory. Even in Babylon. Posted by Kurt Kinney | Posted at 07/18/2006 11:06 PM "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ" Phil 3:20 Posted by bob hyatt | Posted at 07/19/2006 3:58 AM Bob, what are the problems whit these scriptures?
Ephesians 2:19 niv 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household . . .
Luke 20:23-25 niv 23He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24"Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?" 25"Caesar's. ," they replied He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
Worshipping the country over God is making an idol of the nation. But as citizens of heaven we are responsible to the country God has allowed us to be citizens of. All for His glory. Even in Babylon. Posted by Kurt Kinney | Posted at 07/18/2006 11:06 PM "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ" Phil 3:20 Posted by bob hyatt | Posted at 07/19/2006 3:58 AM Bob, what are the problems whit these scriptures?
Ephesians 2:19 niv 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household . . .
Luke 20:23-25 niv 23He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24"Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?" 25"Caesar's. ," they replied He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
The folks who keep saying ‘they’ are aliens and/or foreigners should refer to Ephesians2:19. The WORD of God for the People of God, Praise be to God.
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Why was Daniel thrown into the lion's den again?
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I would love to send a link to think article to a bunch of people from my church, just as food for thought and something to think about... But people are so entrenched in this Christianity=Patriotism thing that I'm worried I'll just needlessly piss people off. I'ev got to come up with another way, because this is SO important.
Thanks!
PJ
At my church, we just finished a sermon series on the book of Jonah, and one of the points made was that the story of Jonah shows us how God's mercy extends to all nations and peoples, not just our tribe or nation, or the one's we think are favored by God.
Peace, Gordon
You do have a wonderful country and I'm familiar with 'America the Beautiful'. It was one of the hymns in our 'American' hymnal - but we used to sing 'O Israel' instead of 'America'! But history shows us that empires rise and fall - and it's only a matter of time!
The article makes you think. There are some excellent points about the separation of church and state, something that's definatly not in the US constitution but certainly in the Scripture.
I would take issue over someone who commented on the Bush/Blair/Christianity connection. It is just as disturbing to have Christians support social welfare programs operated by the state using taxes collected from my income. I don't fork over my taxes with a joyful heart, but I'll certanly give joyfully to social programs run by believers because that's the church's job, not the government's. The state should get out of that business so I've got more to give to my church's food bank and other social programs that are run better than _any_ government program.
I should also note that I really don't go for other theme days like Father's Day and Mother's Day - but I'm far from anti-parent. Just like patriotic celebrations - there is more than enough going on to celebrate those days without making church like a Branson production.
Let us pray that we fall in love with God and His Kingdom. Let us pray that when He returns - he finds a church truly longing for His coming, not just wondering how our investments are doing and if we could swing another car into out budgets.
Very interesting and encouraging to see Americans questioning this whole thing about flag worship.
However, I do think it's ok to consider good things about yourselves. ONE: America is a wealthy nation and prides itself on givng...America as God's Nation Yes..sure , but so is AFRICA!!!!!!!!!! Make Poverty History... would that be a patriotic thing to do? for America? sure!!
I agree that worship services are for bringing glory to God. However, I'm wondering if your readers would be as upset about honoring mothers and fathers on their special days. Or making Christmas a celebration as bizarre as it has become. Jesus never commanded us to celebrate his birth.
I don't see a celebration of America as supplanting our love for God. Instead, I find it sad the number of Americans who fail to grasp the price that was paid for the great benefits we enjoy. Having traveled a bit myself, I am always grateful to return to this country.
Freedom is a concept close to God's heart. As a pastor, I hope you can can preach that...around July 4th, or anytime.
But if it's all the same to you, we'll keep our community celebration of the fourth to a bar b que where we eat good food, enjoy one another's company and celebrate our political freedom by (as Jefferson exhorted us to) blowing things up.
We'll keep the church gathering closest to the fourth centered on Jesus.
In Adventures In Missing The Point, Tony Campolo puts it this way: “America may be the best Babylon the world has, but it is still Babylon nonetheless.”
We live in Babylon, folks. It’s a world system that transcends borders, is dominated by American-style consumerism and exploitation, and is fundamentally ((opposed to the Kingdom of God???)). . .AND. . .More than that, it’s a system which will someday be brought to a terrifying and glorious end by the coming of God’s Anointed One. Yes, someday Jesus Himself will sweep America, along with all the other (Roman, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc, Evergreen Community, etc, Christ Apostolic Church, etc) babelistic towers we have built, into the dustbin of history.
---Read the Bible…WORD… Jesus said, (NIV) “I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.” Matthew 12:5-7
How Should We Then Celebrate?
We need to make sure that the message of our worship environment (the message people intuit when they walk into our building “(through The Gates of Hades)” or sanctuary or gathering space) is consistent with OUR DOCTRINE (not that of Christ?): Our allegiance belongs to Christ alone (did you forget GOD the Father?), we are citizens of another country, and we are looking not to the country in which we live, but to a heavenly one.
Anyway, for those interested, here is the video we've shown before our service the past two Fourth of July weekends... Get's me every time. From Highway Video, music by Derek Webb.
Please reread the OT and tell me there isn't patriotism by God's people. I don't think since the beginning of humanity there has been a nation that has truly been His. God chose Israel not because of how great they were but because of His GRACE! And still they screwed up. But He never quit being their God - GRACE!
Please reread your American history, not from history books which write what they think history was. Withou God's plan and purpose involved in man's affairs you get a skewed view of history. Sure the Americans didn't do everything right or godly - so we condemn it all? The Native Americans - were treated less than human in many cases, but let's not forget how God has always dealt with a people or nations that choose not to worship Him. Another power comes and subdues them - that is history. Sad to say as America keeps turning further and further away from God, we can be assured that God will use another power to subdue us. And many godly American Christians will suffer too when this happens.
Worshipping the country over God is making an idol of the nation. But as citizens of heaven we are responsible to the country God has allowed us to be citizens of. All for His glory. Even in Babylon.
our national identies in Grace and letting Him live as us,nationally and culturally out of that. This is the Grace thing to do, otherwise we are denying important parts of ourselves - submitting it all under Grace...we can't go wrong there anf then let Him breathe through it
In Grace I think its possible to be patriotic without becoming partisan to either political leaning. I know from personal experience that taking a particular side politically ( the hard left) I have denied myself the opportunity to grow in Grace and walk into the things He has for me; to let His love for certain people ( right wingers mainly)flow in me and through me
America does patriotism in quite a unique way to the rest of the world and I think it is because like other European countries who now have presidential constitutions which were borne out of monarchies,and there is a heritage underlying them, the US never had a monarchy - period; it has had to find a sense of itself therefore in overt ways of flag waving and idealism as a means of over-compensating for a lack of monarchism and heritage.
This is a Brit talking here...if I don't make much sense please ask me to explain in further detail
In Christ's Love - Chad
- Sinclair Lewis early 20th century
We need to make sure that the message of our worship environment (the message people intuit when they walk into our building “(through The Gates of Hades)” or sanctuary or gathering space) is consistent with OUR DOCTRINE (not that of Christ?): Our allegiance belongs to Christ alone (did you forget GOD the Father?), we are citizens of another country, and we are looking not to the country in which we live, but to a heavenly one.
Posted by rotciv | Posted at 07/15/2006 7:28 PM
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Ahh... yeah. A little incoherent there, "rotciv"... Anyway, for those interested, here is the video we've shown before our service the past two Fourth of July weekends... Get's me every time. From Highway Video, music by Derek Webb.
Posted by bob hyatt | Posted at 07/15/2006 7:38 PM
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Ahh… yeah Pastor Bob, please point out the incoherence to help me clarify my relationship with Jesus.
Posted by Rotciv | Posted at 07/15/2006 8:11 PM ---------------------------------------------------
When Pastor Bob was asked to "point out the incoherence" in my comment, as can be seen, he has ignored that request. What scripture says to ignore one's faithful request for clarification?
Ephesians 2:19 niv 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household . . .
Luke 20:23-25 niv 23He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24"Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?" 25"Caesar's. ," they replied He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
Ephesians 2:19 niv 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household . . .
Luke 20:23-25 niv 23He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24"Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?" 25"Caesar's. ," they replied He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."