An Interview with Todd Hunter
By Stephen Shields (with Charlie Wear) |
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Todd Hunter is well-known within the emerging church community and beyond for his strategic counsel for young church planters in addition to his leadership with the Association of Vineyard Churches (1994-2001), Allelon (2001-2004), and – most currently – with Alpha (2004- the present). On 1 April 2008, Todd announced that he was stepping down from his position as National Director of Alpha (though remaining on Alpha’s Executive Committee and Board) to launch a new ministry – the Society for Kingdom Living (SFKL).
We recently had a chance to grill Todd about what he’s learned, the next phase of his leadership adventure, the Society for Kingdom Living, and something called “Three is Enough Groups.”
 • Todd, how long have you been involved in pastoral ministry?
Since I was 19 years old - 33 years!
• If you could travel back in time to the first year in which you were a pastor, what counsel would you give yourself?
To not get so busy; to remember that taking good care of my whole self under God—body, soul, spirit, etc. is the only legitimate place from which to do ministry.
I’d remind myself that nothing I build or do will last—but I will last for ever. I am God’s project; my projects are just that—mine. But the person I become in the carrying out of ministry will last forever.
• What was the most important thing you learned from John Wimber (one of the key founders of the Vineyard movement)?
That the Kingdom of God was the main message of Jesus and the main reality in which Christians are to walk and invite others. Christian life is “eternal life” and that life starts now. I love the way Eugene Peterson puts it in The Message: “real life…life, life and more life to come”. It is life derived from and lived in the Kingdom God by the power of the Holy Spirit—in a way that others experience as for their good, especially the least, the last and missing. And…that pursuing this kingdom life necessitates risk and learning—especially on the part of leaders. There is a reason the disciples sometimes came off as nerds or dummies in the New Testament—they took the risk of walking a totally unknown road—life in the kingdom.
• Todd, as Director of the Association for Vineyard Churches for 7 years, what did you learn about the church by the time you left in 2001 that you didn't know in 1994?
As president of Vineyard churches, I was asked to serve as a board and executive committee member of the National Association of Evangelicals. This gave me the wonderful benefit of a behind the scenes look into scores of denominations. Plus, as an avid observer of the sociology of religion, I participated in think tanks at some of the best academic institutions in the country. I had no business being there; I didn’t earn it—it was sheer gift. But it gave me a great view of the wider church. Here is what I learned: the church knows it is increasingly marginalized by society. This reality is often called “post-Christendom”. There is a large and legitimate debate about what form that will take in America, whether it will follow the pattern of “secular” Europe or take on some distinctly American version. Here is what I took away from what I learned: what a great time to be alive, to be a Christ-follower, to have a chance to shape what “the new normal” will look like.
I’ve been trying to make a contribution to the new normal ever since.
• Your most recent role has been as a National Director for Alpha in the United States. What do the folks at Alpha know that the church in North America needs to learn?
That in spite of the growing difficulty with the task of evangelism, and even with the growing awkwardness and pessimism on both sides of the conversation, evangelism is still possible. I know some readers of Next-Wave will instinctively think of The Alpha Course as “modern”. I can see why: it is logical, linear, has some process to it, etc. However, what I’d like us to consider is that Alpha is a mix of modern and postmodern elements. In my view, this mix is a nearly perfect fit for our transitory time in which some seekers have a modern worldview and others a postmodern view of life. I think the basic mix of Alpha is fabulous: it is catechism and a dinner! Think about it: with how many people have you had dinner ten times, plus a weekend away over the last year? I’ll bet that for most readers, the answer is “zero”—not even with my spouse! The atmosphere of a well-run Alpha Course matches well some crucial needs of seekers: relationship, community and dialog in which no question is too naive and no statement too hostile. In my view, it used to be that seekers listened their way into the faith. Thus the main role for Christians was talking—preaching. Now seekers are talking and observing their way into the faith. Thus we need to create emotionally, intellectually and relationally honest environments where seeks can see us up close, tell their stories and ask their sometimes tough questions.
• Todd, for several years, you've been a participant in the emerging church conversation.
What does the wider church need to learn from the emerging church?
Their focus on Christianity being the following of God in the way of Jesus—in a whole life way. I also admire their effort to keep things real in the emerging church. And I love the care for “the other.”
• What does the emerging church need to learn from the rest of the church?
That all structure is not bad. Everything has structure. What we need to ask is: is this structure ethical, righteous? Does it facilitate our values and mission or frustrate them, etc?
• Why do many in the emerging church seem to be afraid of evangelism?
What do you think are the valid excesses to which they're reacting?
They are afraid because there is a huge tension regarding intention to evangelize anyone. In most of the emerging, alt-church scene it is currently a pretty big foul ball to have a previous aim of evangelizing someone. I understand the impulse; I have seen all the abuses that produce the reactions that leads us to deconstruct past norms.
My goal the last few years has been to stir up an imagination for evangelizing that avoids manipulation. Because these days, in most conversations I partake in, intention is simply taken to be a synonym for manipulation. The concept in my mind has been this: the answer to misuse is not “no” use, it is right use. I think there are ways to explain Christianity and help others come to faith that are not manipulative, not just pragmatic, but actually “holy”—and a part of the winsomeness of our faith.
Against the backdrop of this tension about intentionality, here has been my big idea:
Envision with me evangelism and discipleship/spiritual formation bathed in the Golden Rule and the Great Commandment. Doing so gives me an imagination for how to lead, share my faith and grow as people; to intend things in ways that others around me are actually freer themselves, not less so. Whether correcting, dining, rebuking or attending a wedding, Jesus was himself utterly and totally free. As a freed man, safe in his Father’s love, as a servant, he was free to intend to do things.
In the last little community I started in Southern California, I had a saying everybody knew about and hopefully experienced: I do not want things from you; I want things for you. But you will always be free to pursue the course that seems best to you and the Spirit. Such an attitude, and the actions that naturally spring forth from it, can be a basis for removing the tension from evangelism.
• The press release announcing your new ministry mentions that Christianity in America has “a massive image problem.” Can you unpack that a bit for us?"
I have learned this both from common observation and from the work of George Barna, David Kinnaman and various other sociologists of religion. Maybe a few quotes from Kinnaman will help:
These days nearly two out of every five young outsiders (38%) claim to have a “bad impression of present-day Christianity”. Beyond this, one-third of young outsiders said that Christianity represents a negative image with which they would not want to be associated. Furthermore, one out of every six young outsiders (17%) indicates that he or she maintains “very bad” perceptions of the Christian faith.
The primary reason outsiders feel hostile toward Christians, and especially conservative Christians, is not because of any specific theological perspective. What they react negatively to is our “swagger,” how we go about things and the sense of self-importance we project.
One of the surprising insights from our research is that the growing hostility toward Christians is very much a reflection of what outsiders feel they receive from believers. They say their aggression simply matches the oversized opinions and egos of Christians. One outsider puts it this way: “Most people I meet assume that Christian means very conservative, entrenched in their thinking, antigay, anti-choice, angry, violent, illogical, empire builders; they want to convert everyone, and they generally cannot live peacefully with anyone who doesn’t believe what they believe.”.
• Why have you chosen at this point in your life to launch your own ministry?
I turned 52 this week. I have spent a great deal of my life supporting the work of others—and I will continue to do so—especially emerging young leaders. But, I feel like it is my time to make a distinct contribution which arises from my learning rom others during 33 years in ministry. I don’t assume my voice is best or definitive. Far from it. In fact most days I feel like I am completely dependent on others. But…I do have some ideas I want to get out via writing and teaching. I can do that better working for myself than I can in an institution of some sort. I have been president of something or another for a long time—I want to try a simpler approach.
• What is your new ministry: The Society for Kingdom Living (SFKL)?
SFKL, in my mind, will never be a public entity. It is simply an umbrella organization under which I can carry out my sense of call. It is the legal name under which I will execute my ministry and be accountable. My main activities for the last part of my life will revolve around teaching and writing. I’ll do conferences, seminars, teach at seminaries, perhaps start a new church, etc.
What I hope will become a public reality, but in a quiet, gentle, humble and winsome way, is Three is Enough Groups: Spirituality for the Sake of Others
• What’s a "Three is Enough Group?"
Three is Enough Groups bring together the five most important strands of my life-long pursuit of Christian spirituality for the sake of others:
the Gospel of the Kingdom,
the person and work of the Holy Spirit,
evangelism,
spiritual transformation and
contemporary culture.
TEGs assist three people in any aspect of human endeavor to be, through the empowering presence of the Spirit, ambassadors of the Kingdom in the rhythms and routines of their actual current life. Participation in a TEG makes possible a couple crucial practices (and re-practicing Christianity is a preeminent goal of TEGs): one’s own spiritual transformation and an others-oriented, servant-hearted engagement with life.
TEGs have a double meaning. It is three people, doing three simple activities to support the vision above: pray, grow and serve. Pray to be able to pay attention to the people and events of your life; to be alert to the leadings of the Sprit and the activities of the Kingdom of God. Grow by reading good spiritual literature and taking 30 – 60 minutes a week with your TEG to discuss how what you are reading is making a difference in your life. Serve others through creative, resourceful and inventive help. Be humble, gentle, generous and genuinely altruistic—no attention drawn to you or your TEG.
God’s purpose for us is that we are his cooperative friends serving others—the least, the last, the broken and the missing—in the everyday affairs and rhythms of our lives. TEG’s give us one simple way to do just that. Anyone can do it: three nurses, three investment bankers, three cops or firemen, the administrative assistants, etc. It takes no special leadership. Just find two other people and get started. If you need help, contact me for now at: toddhunter@alphausa.org
• How will these groups help to change the image of Christianity?
I hope that in the words of my friend Jim Henderson, they will help Christians “be normal”, but genuinely in touch with the Kingdom and the Spirit in a way that those around them experience as for their good.
• We understand one of the motivations behind your new ministry is a desire to help pastors and lay leaders reach a generation that has become disenfranchised from the church. Why do think so many are turned off by the church?
I think there are two parts: some is just misunderstanding based on broad brushing all churches by the weirdness or sinfulness of a few. Just look at what politicians do to their opponents and you know what outsiders do to the church—they use the worst to characterize the whole. Of course we may do the same to outsiders! On the other hand, we have earned some of our negative reputation. Another quote I could give you from David Kinnaman’s book “Un-Christian” gives us a glimpse into why this is the case:
The most common reaction to the faith: they think Christians no longer represent what Jesus had in mind, that Christianity in our society is not what is was meant to be. They admit they have a hard time actually seeing Jesus because of all the negative baggage that now surround him.
• What's the best way to keep up with what's happening with Three is Enough?
I am presently building a site: 3isenough.org. For now, email me at toddhunter@alphausa.org.
• By the end of May of 2011, what would have to happen so that you would say that Three is Enough has been a success?
There will thousands of TIE Groups all over the world quietly being transformed into the image of Jesus in a way that others around them experience as for their good, thus working against the image problem of Christianity and facilitating others coming to faith in, and follower-ship of Jesus.
• You have planned a series of "Conversational Evangelism Conferences." What's the idea behind these?
I am trying to help the wider evangelical church learn “persuasive listening “as a way to assist others in their journey to faith. I try to show that all approaches to evangelism arise from a context. Our postmodern, post-Christian context requires something different than the modern, Christendom context from which previous legitimate forms of evangelism emerged. “Conversation” is my one-word way of unpacking that reality.
• When are we going to finally see your first book and what will it be about???
It is due to be released next year at this time by InterVarsity Press. It will be titled: Christianity Beyond Belief: Following Jesus for the Sake of Others. It unpacks my views of the Gospel of the Kingdom, sets forth a vision for what it means to be a Christian and gives a simple way to get started in that direction—Three is Enough Groups!
• Do you ever plan to blog again?
Yes! Coming soon! Check our 3isenough.org.
 Stephen Shields is the founder of faithmaps.org, a Manager with USA TODAY, a consultant, and a freelance writer. Stephen serves on the Leadership Development Team of Grace Community Church in Fulton, MD, where he and his wife, Beth, also co-lead a ministry serving folks in Louisiana that survived Katrina and Rita called KatrinaGrace. Stephen received a M.Div from Grace Theological Seminary and lives with his wife and three daughters - Michaela Siobhan, Skye Teresa, and Alia Noelle - in the Baltimore-Washington corridor. He can be contacted at sshields@faithmaps.org and blogs at the faithmaps blog. |
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