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UNchristian – What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity – And Why It Matters
By Bill Dahl

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UnChristian – What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity – And Why It Matters
An Interview with David Kinnaman, President – The Barna Group

In my opinion, this is one of the top 3 most important books I have read in 2007. It's going to define what I carry into 2008 and beyond. I hope you enjoy the following that Charlie Wear at Next-Wave asked me to prepare for you. -Bill Dahl

Question 1: How’s the family? How are Jill and your three children? How’s David? What are your primary professional objectives for 2008, as President of The Barna Group?

Kinnaman: My family is in good shape. Thanks for asking. I live with Christmas elves. For weeks, my wife and kids have been busy decorating and primping for Christmas!

I am doing well. My professional objective is pretty simple: keep doing what George Barna has been doing for nearly three decades. At the core, that is helping church leaders assess and respond to reality around them. Good research is like a mirror - it can help you become a better truth teller. To your culture, to your church, to yourself. We will be creating lots of new tools and resources here at The Barna Group, but the core will be the same.

And, by the way, thank you for the encouragement regarding unChristian. I have been completely surprised by the favorable reaction. You wrote one of the first reviews on Amazon. It was very helpful to people, I think. Thank you.

Question 2: Your co-author, Gabe Lyons of Fermi Project (www.fermiproject.com) is an incredible guy. Can you speak toward Gabe's contribution to the research and the book for us? Make sure that you provide readers with an awareness of 'Q' in April 2008 In NYC.

Kinnaman: Gabe is a great friend. The genesis of this project was Gabe's strong conviction that the reputation of Christianity was changing. He was so convinced of this that he raised a huge chunk of money and started his own organization to address the problem. I wrote most of the book, but it was his original idea; he convinced me to write it; he wrestled through the content with me; and he brought almost all of the contributors to the project. I didn't think any publisher would be Interested. Gabe did. If it were not for Gabe, the book would not exist. Fermi Project and Q (the conference in NYC) are also facilitating ongoing dialogue about the book. Gabe is a leader who, with God's blessing, I expect will deeply influence the Christian community in our country for many years to come.

Question 3: Your book begins with the statement, "Christianity has an image problem." Please describe the essence of this 'problem' for our readers.

Kinnaman: This is easiest by way of metaphor. Think of some brand you dislike. For me, there is a certain retailer here in Ventura that I hate. I avoid going there at all costs. They are too big, careless, and clueless. Their salespeople are neither friendly nor informed. With just a few miserable episodes, I still have strong negative reaction. And that's just a lousy electronics store.

Now, think of the significant, life-shaping experiences people have in a church. It can either be a place of healing, acceptance and growth or a brood of vipers! In Matthew 23, Jesus says hypocrites create spiritual barricades for others, "You won't let others enter the Kingdom of Heaven." And Paul makes this audacious statement about the religious leaders of his day (see Romans 2:24): "The world blasphemes the name of God because of you." That's an image problem. But it's also a substance problem. If we are just like that retailer -- too big, careless, clueless, and insincere -- we push people away from God.

The crux of the image problem is this: Are we merely a crusty reseller of spirituality or a dynamic community that does good in the world?

Question 4: On page 36, you write: "How can people love God, whom they can't see, if those of us who claim to represent him don't respond to outsiders with love." Can you provide three fundamental suggestions that might reverse this "unloving perception"?

Kinnaman: Sure. But it's not three easy tasks. I think the solution starts at a soul level.

First, ask God to show you when you're acting as the "big brother" of the prodigal parable. Of course, Jesus tells the story of the prodigal to illustrate a father's unconditional love in the face of bold sin. I find it fascinating to observe the posture of the older sibling. We are often like that big brother, putting conditions on when and how a perfect Father will love and accept our brothers and sisters. I am not arguing for spiritual inclusivism or moral relativism. But we are often jealous, self-righteous, condescending, and petty. These attitudes are spiritual death traps, and they build up spiritual barricades. This is especially true when we are representing an invisible heavenly Father to people around us.

Second, ask non-Christians on your street or at your workplace to tell you what they think about you and Christianity. Don't assume they are idiots. They are not. And the Holy Spirit may speak to them by through your act of listening.

Third, spend intentional time alone, meditating on God's thoughts about you, his child. In essence, our compassion problem is not solved by doing more acts of compassion. Henri Nouwen's book, The Way of the Heart, argues that spiritual disciplines are the only true solutions to our root issues. We become more deeply loving by seeing the depth of our sin.

On this point, I am convinced that my generation could fail miserably and create an even worse image than we have now. If we try to live out a "cool" faith, or if we simply try to "do good" in the world, we are bound to fail. The key is doing these things out of an identification with what Jesus did - rescuing and restoring the broken parts of creation. Laying down our lives -- spending ourselves as Isaiah 58 puts it -- for the sake of the others.

Question 5: The term 'Christianity' or 'Christian' has evolved into a brand (as characterized in your book). Like any brand name, there are positives and negatives associated with having attained 'brand recognition,' particularly in North America. There is a dialog and movement afoot among some 'Christians' exploring the possibility of intentionally not referring to themselves as Christians any longer due to the baggage that the brand has come to accumulate along the way. My sense from studying your book is that, "we can call ourselves whatever we wish, but if our behavior doesn't change, simply changing how we refer to ourselves doesn't matter." Have I synthesized this correctly? Please comment.

Kinnaman: First off, my friend Phil Cooke has this great saying: "You can't brand a lie." We cannot pretend to be something we aren't. The image problem is a deep-rooted, substantive problem. I think the Christian community in North America is being held to account for misusing its dominance.

Think of it this way: what if skeptical, biased media is a symptom -- not the cause -- of the Church being apathetic and sheltered? If we had the piety and perspective of biblical exiles like Daniel and Joseph, I think our response as Christians would be something entirely different in our culture today. Yet, I think most American Christians believe the Church is completely at the mercy of the so-called media elites -- as though our Babylon is somehow worse off than other cultures throughout history. Christianity has been the dominant cultural force in the West for centuries, but we blame everyone else.

The first reaction almost everyone has to my research is that the negative image is just a reflection of what "secular" media has been serving up. Three years ago, I even expected that. But then I interviewed person after person who said they came to their conclusions based upon conversations, relationships and past experiences in churches. Listen, I understand the frustration Christians have with media, but we cannot blame other people for the messes we have created. The Gospel is either the most powerful force in the universe or it's not.

Question 6: As I read the book, I began to cry…actual tears rolling down my cheeks. I closed the book and fell to my knees pleading with God to forgive us for the mess we have made. It seems rather obvious to me that we must face the challenge of unlearning much of what has got us into this conundrum. On page 82 you state, "Knowing the right answers is not sufficient; we have to be able to apply what we know. The first step is realizing what we don't know." Can you identify some of the central tenets of what your research Indicates that we must 'unlearn.'

Kinnaman: I have many thoughts about that. Here is one: we have to change how we develop young people. For many churches and parents, the goal is simply conveying good content. I think it ought to be cultivating thoughtful, humble heart attitudes. Ironically, I think this emphasis on information has stripped away young people's desire to learn. Instead, we should cultivate a picture of God that is infinite and transcendent. He always pulls us higher up and deeper in.

Here is a related thought: whatever your theological persuasion, our research shows that we do not give enough emphasis to teaching young people how to listen and hear the voice of God. I believe that one reason we Christians are known as mean-spirited and self-absorbed proselytizers is that few of us are consistently hearing and speaking from what the Holy Spirit gives us to say. We're whistling our own selfish, self-righteous tune, when God gives us the supernatural ability to be singing from his songbook. Imagine if churches took a year and said, "All we're going to do is teach people to hear God's voice." We would see millions of believers influencing their communities not because of wise words but because of what Jesus was saying through them.

Question 7: On page 84, you write, "If outsiders stop listening, we cannot just turn up the volume." There are millions in the established, institutional church today who are quite happy with the "tune" Christianity is singing. How do you motivate these folks to consider the fundamental necessity of "singing a new song"? In reading your book, it appears that the research is suggesting it is not the tune we sing that matters most, it's our behavior. Can you elaborate on this?

Kinnaman: It's not just changing behavior, it's shifting our mindset about those outside the church. Jesus came to heal the sick. If we don't do the things he did -- setting captives free, giving sight to the blind, proclaiming God's favor -- we are not doing what Jesus did. It's recognizing that we're the older brother. It's recognizing that Jesus didn't use spiritual clichés, but we do. For instance, he never said "love the sinner, hate the sin." And yet I've heard that phrase scores of times in church circles. Instead, Jesus said In Luke 7, "If you have been forgiven much, love much." Scripture holds us to high accountability for our attitudes as much as our behaviors. We need constant gut checks, not behavior modifications.

Question 8: On page 106, you suggest that "We cannot assume that politics is the only or best way to influence people." On page 169, the research indicates that the lack of trust of Christians, was distinctly related to the Christian involvement in politics." There are those who suggest that in the last 20 years, the politicization of the Christian faith in the U.S. has truly fueled this degradation in the perception of things 'Christian," in U.S. society. Doesn't your research really suggest that its time that Christianity gets out of the religion business and moves away from its concomitant affection for political influence?

Kinnaman: Yes. And no. Should Christianity get out of the "religion business"? Yes. Should Christians ditch politics? I don't think so. I respect Christians on both sides of the debate, those who are ready to put politics completely off the agenda and those who are trying to make a difference through politics.

Politics is perhaps the most complicated aspect of integrating our faith Into what it means to be a citizen and a neighbor. So we should all start with the admission that we don't know much beyond our (small) frame of reference. This means disagreements about the nature and outcomes of politics are to be expected -- even within the Christian community. But they should not undermine our unity in Christ. Any Christ follower willing to sacrifice unity or love for the sake of political ends has lost the soul of following Christ. I could talk all day about Christians in politics, but for now we'll leave it at that.

Question 9: After I picked myself up off the floor (see question 6 above), I have come back to reread certain sections of the book on numerous occasions, during the past few weeks. I've been praying out it. I have begun to realize the tremendous opportunities and distinct challenges your book and attendant research lay out for us. Frankly, I've become excited about the "permission" to change, unlearn, learn and grow that the book grants/implores. What are the implications of this research and the book that excite you the most?

Kinnaman: There are many exciting things. One thing is the fact that God is in control. So there is nothing to fear, even if the research seems alarming. Another thing is that I think we are likely to see a time of spiritual entrepreneurship that we have not seen in centuries. By that I mean many new ventures for the cause of the Kingdom will flourish. New ministries, businesses, non-profits, and education systems will be created by Christians who are eager to refashion a livable, godly, just, and beautiful society.

On a very personal note, some of my friendships with non-Christians have been re-energized by what I've learned through this research project. That's been wonderful to see God bring new intimacy to my friendships. It started with me learning what a lousy friend I had become in some ways. That excites me because I hope God will touch readers of the book Ii the same way.

Question 10: From the Fermi Project website, Gabe states: "Fermi represents the beginning of a chain reaction. It starts small, but through intentional linking over time creates an exponential effect, a major shift within the church's way of viewing its mission and opportunity within the culture.” Can you provide a few tangible examples that denote the ‘major shift’ Fermi Project is alluding to that you have observed?

Kinnaman: Well, perhaps you could point to the book, unChristian, as one example. It started out as a conversation Gabe and I had. Which facilitated a research project. Which morphed into a book. Which has now sparked discussion and thought among thousands of people about how we connect with and serve the people around us. That's an example of a chain reaction.

Question 11: Solid social research (like yours) should always spawn additional research. Can you shed some light on the new research initiatives or book ideas this effort has birthed that you intend to address in 2008?

Kinnaman: My next set of research will explore antidotes to unChristian faith: If young people have simply get shallow faith, what will enable them to experience and develop deep, lasting faith?

This will involve research on how young people develop purpose and vocation; how and what best teaches them to think; and how young people can best be engaged in serving and doing good in the world. My research will be with a similar age group, people under the age of 30, because so much of a person's life trajectory is set by then. In way, my goal is to encourage, energize, and equip the next generation of spiritual communicators and entrepreneurs.

Bill Dahl: Thanks so VERY much David. God bless you and yours, and your colleagues at The Barna Group. Please say hello to George from us.

Bill Dahl is a freelance writer. Bill is published in numerous professional publications, magazines, websites, journals, newspapers and newsletters. You can enjoy Bill’s writing on his website at ThePorpoiseDivingLife.com.

Contact Bill at wsdahl(at)bendbroadband(dot)com.

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